Curse

Saider maul · Jul 09, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I would like to discuss 2 skills for the dervish to make the entire line more balanced.

The first skill is Wearying strike. This skill is fine but ATM use primarily on melandru dervish due to melandru being immune to conditions. To See this skill more widely used on other dervish builds I feel the weakness duration should be dropped to 5seconds. This would put it in line with the paragons wearying spear making it more equal.

The second skill I'd like to discuss is Avatar of Melandru. True this avatar has been hit with a high energy cost and has had its HP boost severly dropped,
However in its current state the melandru fights for energy when not assisted with RoF spam from a monk. My idea to balance this avatar and make it useful and have better energy managment would be to cut the energy cost to 10 energy and give it a mechanic as such.. While in avatar of melandru everytime you use an attack skill you lose 1 condition. This is very similar to Dwayna's hex removal mechanic. This would allow melandru's to be slowed down on Deep wound spams on the train while keeping up a high resistance to conditions.

I make these suggestions because i want to see a better varity of avatars used and wearying strike become more useable among all avatars.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 09, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

This would put it in line with the paragons wearying spear making it more equal.

This skill won't be equal with wearying spear unless deep wound is taken out, otherwise, it will still be superior in every way, shape, and form.

And who the hell uses wearying spear either way?

Saider maul · Jul 09, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

If I am not mistaken wasn't the weakness duration of wearying strike to 5 seconds on Ensigns nerf wish list? cough cough....

Seef II · Jul 09, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I'd look at making the other dervish deep wounds not suck, so Dervishes are not forced into the one-trick pony builds they are right now. Maybe remove the health bonus altogether from melandru and drop to 15e - it's still not really cleanly spikable, but more killable.

Farin · Jul 09, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

I don't like the AoE, I'd limit it to pve.

Melody Cross · Jul 09, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

If you really want dervishes to stop being a 1 trick pony, stop buffing skills you already use

There are a lot of enchantments out there in the dervish line that are only fuel for mysticism atm. Buffing them would go a long way to improving the dervish's versatility. If all dervishes are good for are their elite avatars then, tbh, thats really only one trick...just five of the same kind of trick.

Lots of Dervish Elites out there could be really great if the skills they are used with were not so mediocre. Buffing Earth and Wind (reducing cost and duration to the enchants, maybe a slight nerf to damage as they would then be more easy to spam) would help improve the feel of the class, make it more solo/split friendly, and all around more powerful outside of its current niche.

Thats my view anyway.

GGs

TheOneMephisto · Jul 10, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

If I am not mistaken wasn't the weakness duration of wearying strike to 5 seconds on Ensigns nerf wish list? cough cough....

a) I don't know what the coughing is for...
b) Not originally
c) Only combined with some pretty hefty nerfs to it.

AoE spammable eviscerate is just not good. If you want to buff the weakness duration, you'd better nerf it pretty hard in other ways, or else you're just going to see dervs with weakness reducation + featherfoot/recovery having weakness expire before their next scythe attack even hits. Then it'll be just as bad as Mels dervs, except... without having to use mels.

around · Jul 10, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

While in avatar of melandru everytime you use an attack skill you lose 1 condition.

This is of interest to me. However, since conditions are meant to be easier to apply/remove, make it remove conditions on skill use.

I like that idea.

Saider maul · Jul 10, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I to want to see the entire dervish line made more versital. We are just talking about breaking up the gimmick atm. Atm its Melandru.. Melandru.. Melandru.... Did i say melandru? Occasionally ya see a Dwayna on a gvg team for a split.

oh and Panda nice way to talk around the question. lol Wether it was an edit or not it was suggested by someone better then you and there none the less.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 10, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

oh and Panda nice way to talk around the question. lol Wether it was an edit or not it was suggested by someone better then you and there none the less.

I know, I've read that entire thread. I'm just saying that the thread combined a weakness buff with a huge nerf also, while your post suggests nothing of the like. If you simply reduce the weakness without hurting the skill in other ways, it's just going to make things worse by huge degrees.

And BTW, who r u?

Patccmoi · Jul 10, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I actually suggested that Weakness duration reduction BECAUSE it was nerfed. So that while it became weaker on Melandru, it became a bit more versatile on other Dervish bars and Dervish got a realistic non-elite DW option.

I think that most of Dervish skills are underpowered overall. And what's kinda weird in your original post is that your suggestions to 'make the entire line more balanced' is to tweak/buff 2 skills that are on the nearly only used Derv bar.

In GvG a while ago we used another Dervish bar that i liked a lot:

Avatar of Balth's
Victorious Sweep
Mystic Sweep
Rending Sweep
Heart of Fury
Augury of Death
Disrupting Dagger
Rez

It actually allowed for good melee pressure that had enchant removal, interrupt and a good spike option with nearly constant 33% IMS and 33% IAS. But the main thing is that my required skills come from /A. I would've gladly use a non-elite DW on Derv, but none is working on non-Melandru.

The full 'put enchants on and strip them' idea is not working atm because the skills at the core of it kinda fail, except maybe for Mystic Sandstorm in RA. Wind Prayers as a whole relies heavily on enchantments (Mystic Healing, Mystic Twister, Pious Restoration, etc.) while all its enchantments are costy with long recharge, and you have a skill like Natural Healing that makes no damn sense there (it penalizes you to have enchantments on when the full attribute line is all about having enchants on).

There'd be interesting combos with stuff like Aura of Thorns + Rending Touch for instance which could quickly put cripple, bleeding and remove an enchant on a guy, but i can't think of any useful character bar where i have room to put it on.

Maybe a bit more versatile skills would be interesting. The dual effect of enchants is interesting with effects when you activate them, when they end, etc., but for example why are all those enchants doing nothing (or nothing of interest, like turning your damage into earth) when they're on? If you could combine a few effects like this you could likely make much more versatile skills. Give some a 25% IAS, etc.

Saider maul · Jul 11, 2007, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Pat: I totally agree several skills need changed to make the dervish more versital and playable in several ways.

Panda: I am someone with balls enough to put your ego in check, and if you wish to adress me by any name Call me Ether. If you PUG i am sure you'll find me on one of several vent servers.

runeseeker1 · Jul 12, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Maybe a bit more versatile skills would be interesting. The dual effect of enchants is interesting with effects when you activate them, when they end, etc., but for example why are all those enchants doing nothing (or nothing of interest, like turning your damage into earth) when they're on? If you could combine a few effects like this you could likely make much more versatile skills.

I can think of some interesting builds that don't use an avatar....

Ebon Dust Aura+Staggering Force or Dust Cloak to deal Earth damage without needing an Earth weapon, so that you can inflict blindness on each attack skill

Grenth's Grasp+Grenth's Fingers (same as Ebon Dust Aura) I personally think Grenth's Grasp is underrated because it's like having Crippling Sweep on every attack skill!

With Vow of Silence, you can make yourself invulnerable to spells, so that could make a great 105(i think) Dervish.

With those two Pious skills in Mysticism (i forgot what theyre called) you can use one for Mystic Sandstorm spiking, to completely regenerate your energy. The other one is handy for spamming Mystic Healing and Mystic Twister.

I'm sure people could think of some other nice combos.

Patccmoi · Jul 12, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by runeseeker1

I can think of some interesting builds that don't use an avatar....

Ebon Dust Aura+Staggering Force or Dust Cloak to deal Earth damage without needing an Earth weapon, so that you can inflict blindness on each attack skill

Grenth's Grasp+Grenth's Fingers (same as Ebon Dust Aura) I personally think Grenth's Grasp is underrated because it's like having Crippling Sweep on every attack skill!

With Vow of Silence, you can make yourself invulnerable to spells, so that could make a great 105(i think) Dervish.

With those two Pious skills in Mysticism (i forgot what theyre called) you can use one for Mystic Sandstorm spiking, to completely regenerate your energy. The other one is handy for spamming Mystic Healing and Mystic Twister.

I'm sure people could think of some other nice combos.

I can't help but think that this is PvE thinking a bit.

I know all those combos, they're 'obvious' in a sense since it says 'need earth damage' and the skill above is 'turn your damage in earth', but is the skill slot SERIOUSLY worth it? Would you waste a skill slot on that Staggering Force when you could simply use an Ebon Scythe? If you don't have an Ebon Scythe or an Icy one, against that's PvE concerns. I'd much, much rather have a better skill in its place. A different scythe mod is simply not worth a skill slot. And those skills like Dust Cloak, Staggering Force, etc... they MIGHT be useful if they had very small cooldown (thinking of something like 5 seconds or even less) so that you could kinda use them at will, drop them, put them back up, etc. Then there might be something interesting to do with stuff like Pious Assault to deal decent damage while reapplying conditions to adjacent foes. But with the recharge they have now, they're not usable at all. And something like 'blind adjacent foes for 4s' is really not that great of an effect if it can't be used repeatedly.

The combo of Grenth's Finger + Grenth's Grasp is even more stupid imo. You take an enchant that cripples when it ends to use an enchant that cripples when you hit? Why the hell would you want 2 skill slots, 1 being elite, that have more or less the same use?

And then you compare both of them to Harrier's Grasp, which is not elite and if anything is better than any of them, and you really wonder what they were thinking with all those skills.

Wind Prayers has some really neat skills in there, i made an HA build with them and it seemed to have some potential (but it's just not functional in HA right now when you have to fight that mass spirit and pet crap that eats all of your Mystic Twister damage), but the thing is you need INSANE energy to use them, and tons of enchants stacked on you. We had a Dark Fury-Order of Pain D/N that just kept reapplying them so that all the other Wind Dervs would get energy and extra enchants on their back from it. But it's kinda dumb that you can't really make any wind dervish build that doesn't require a huge enchantment machine behind it to have any kind of energy. Skills like Dwayna's Touch, Mystic Twister, Mystic Healing, Touch of Faith, Harrier's Grasp, Featherfoot, Pious Restoration and Whirling Charge are all good skills, but it's a damn pain to make any build making real use out of them that doesn't turn into a big enchant fest gimmick that gets destroyed by NR/Tranq.

And i think the randomness should be a bit less emphasized, cause this also weakens the skill and makes them kinda impossible to rely on unless you can max them. For example i'm fine with Mystic Twister if you have 4 enchants on, you shouldn't really have more targets than that anyway (unless you're in HA vs mass heroes with spirits and pets...), but Mystic Healing? You don't want it to 'maybe' heal the persons that need it. So if i use Mystic Healing in 8v8 (and i did quite often before), i won't be happy if there's not 6 or 7 enchants on the guy. But this SERIOUSLY limits the builds and the skills and in any kind of balanced setup there's just no room for any of that Mystic stuff. So if either it worked so that it heals the people in the order of their health % (so it heals people that have lower health % in priority), or at least had something like 'heals you + 1 other random team member per enchant' so that it can also be relied on as a self-heal and the party healing is an extra, or even reduce the range to like 'random party member in earshot' so that it's a bit more controllable, it becomes interesting to fit them on a bar where they're not necessarily the focus then, for example a split Dervish that can use Mystic Healing to heal himself, and in the split if there's just 1-2 other person with him in earshot he might manage to heal the 3 of them everytime. THIS would be valuable. But right now it's just usable in a big gimmick.

And again, Wind has some awefully stupid skills like Enchanted Haste.

I mean, look at this:

Enchanted Haste
5/25
Stance. For 5...17 seconds, if you are under the effects of an Enchantment, you move 25% faster.

Featherfoot Grace
10/¼/20
Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, you move 25% faster, and Conditions expire 50% faster.

Why would you ever, ever use Enchanted Haste? Maybe Featherfoot can be stripped, but if you're stripped in Enchanted Haste it ends anyway. It makes absolutely no sense, and would require huge investment in wind prayers so that it can be maintained 80% of the time while Featherfoot with a 20% longer enchant can be nearly maintained 100% of the time and gives you a huge benefit on top. And cost isn't that much higher when you factor Mysticism.

And you also have stuff like Attacker's Insight which seems like they want you to use it with Concussion Shot or something. I have no clue what they were thinking doing that one.

In general, i think that a good starting point for the 'put enchants up, strip them' idea to come back is to drastically reduce the cooldown of all those types of enchants (Dust Cloak, Staggering Force, Grenth's Finger, Aura of Thorns...). Make them 5s cooldown or something like that, and maybe even lower the cost to 5E because Dervish are big on eating up energy and Mysticism isn't all that great unless you abuse it with stuff like mass orders. If Mystic Sandstorm is a concern, raise the cooldown on THAT. Then doing stuff like Dust Cloak-Rending Touch-Staggering Force-Pious Assault or w/e can become realistic and you don't need a Melandru derv for that so you could use some different elite, like Reaper's Sweep.

I mean, you can find tons of 'fun combos' with the other dervish skills, but the problem is that atm, you can't make a good bar out of them. And that's a major problem, because no matter how much i'd like to do something like Aura of Thorns-Rending Touch, if i can't fit it on any decent bar, it won't happen.

And that 105 Vow of Silence thing is just PvE stuff, not of any real interest here.

moko · Jul 12, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

[skill]Ebon Dust Aura[/skill]

read what it does; it clearly states you actually need to carry an earth weapon.

besides, very nice summary on those skills, you're exactly pointing out their flaws; needs lots of fixing or they won't ever be seen any changes for the derv.

skillsbas8 · Jul 12, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

I don't like the AoE, I'd limit it to pve.

i fullheartedly agree.
The aoe gives them tremendous pressure ability and i think is unnecessary in pvp

Patccmoi · Jul 12, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

i fullheartedly agree.
The aoe gives them tremendous pressure ability and i think is unnecessary in pvp

I wouldn't necessarily be against its removal in PvP, i mean the weapon is very worth it against single targets, but tbh it just won't happen. The weapon is designed this way, the mechanics are done, and it would be a huge change that might force to rebalance a lot of Dervish things. And the AOE in normal play isn't honestly adding a lot of pressure, it's a very small AOE in the end (smaller than adjacent since it's adjacent to you AND your target).

The only problem personally that i have with Scythe is against balled up archers at VoD, but then again it's not like the same couldn't be achieved by throwing a Met Shower in their face. If it's not scythes, it'll be something else, so i don't think that nerfing scythes will really change anything in the end.

I'd much rather see them concentrate their efforts on fixing the 90% of useless junk in the Dervish lines (that COULD be settled likely fairly easily) and balance Melandru + Wearying strike combo.

Seef II · Jul 13, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

The whole idea of enchantments and mysticism was really poorly planned out. Stuff you want to keep up, and stuff you like to strip for effects, damage, or management. Meh. For this reason I haven't observed many enchantments run at all in PvP (Featherfoot Grace, Heart of Fury, Harrier's Grasp basically). In PvE it's even more kludgier with mobs that contain 3-4 copies of enchantment removal.
I'm kind of miffed at how the enchanter dervish got popular in the first place in PvE, but people like their loaded-to-the-gills defense even when they don't need it.

Slap Melandru in the face, make heads and tails of what dervishes actually want to do with enchantments, fix Wearying Strike, and maybe we'll have a solid alternative to the warrior (finally).

Lord Oranos · Jul 24, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

There are a couple of skills Id like to talk about.

One being nearly ALL of the aoe enchantments such as Zealus Renewal, etc etc. I would like to see these reduced to 5 energy as they were nerfed to adjacant and the mysticism nerf already hurt them. As of now I do not see any used (Zealus is a rare occasion).

Also, I would like to see Wounding Strike made nonelite, with a nerf to recharge, enough to make it comparable with dismember. I hate melandru because of the way it outshadows every other elite, but the reason is wearying strike is the ONLY nonelite dw attack, which is conditional, and either requires melandru, or something like Signet of Malice.

I agree with Saiders change to melandru, it would weaken it, but not destroy it.

Also, I completely agree with Pat's points.

The class is and has been a one trick pony for awhile and I hope it is changed for the better.

Saider maul · Jul 24, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

I agree. the melandru + Wearying strike " one trick pony " needs nerfed.